LC: This place is pretty large.
It started as just an empty warehouse — 5000 square feet. But over the last four years we built what we needed to build, rooms within rooms. We put in proper walls, air conditioning, ventilation and dropped the ceiling. The actual studio area was like a carport inside the warehouse. It had 14-foot ceilings, which got dropped down to 10 feet just to hide all of the ducts and sprinklers. At first it was a big, square room — very live. Initially I did a record in here with King Wilkie, a bluegrass group from back east. It was a live record and it worked out pretty well, even though it was a really ambient, square space. After I finished that record I thought, "I'll have to do better than that." We changed the ceiling and built one iso-booth (for a year or so) and then I built the second booth and got the grand piano. The studio we built is big enough that we can do it live performance style. We can set everybody up with their amps right in front of each other or we can spread everybody out, utilize the booths and closets and get some isolation.
LC: Can you throw things out in the big side room too?
Yeah, we do that — gang vocals and handclaps and the odd trumpet or big guitar solo. It's a big sound. It's also great if you have a lot of people. I've recorded a couple of different choirs up here. It is a warehouse and it can be kind of noisy at times. But if you've got the right kind of attitude you can record whatever you want. We have it wired for headphones and mic lines out there. We can also use the whole upstairs lounge area as an iso booth.
LC: You like rugs.
Yeah, well I want the place to look nice, so I covered almost every surface with Indian rugs, tapestries and Christmas lights.
LC: Where do you put amps when you want some isolation?
There is a room underneath the stairs. It's an amp closet. I put the amps in there and I make doghouses out of baffles if you want a little isolation. It's not total, but it's enough — it's old school. You just put a baffle between the amps. I figure if it was good enough for The Beach Boys, it is good enough for me.
LC: What's the name of this studio?
PLYRZ is the name of the studio (pronounced "pliers"). It's also the name of my friends' rock band that rehearses here. We couldn't think of a better name, so we called it the PLYRZ Recording Studio.
JH: Do you mix to tape much?
If I have to do any analog mixing I'll rent a tape recorder. Most artists don't. They can't afford it. I mean, budgets — the only ones lately that have used tape have been Wilco, because they really care and they can hear the difference between tape and Pro Tools. You can't get away with anything around those guys, especially Jeff [Tweedy].
JH: Do you guys stay on tape the whole time with them?
Well, it depends. On Sky Blue Sky it was tape all the way. That's why that record was mixed by hand, because there was no track for time code. They recorded on all 24 tracks. But on the recent record, [Wilco (The Album)] we tracked everything to tape and then transferred it to Pro Tools just because some of the songs were to be more developed. At a certain point we did a shoot out. Jeff likes the sound of tape, but he's not anti-anything. After we did the transfers and worked a little bit, we had a big listening playback and the straight tape sounded a little soft compared to the tape transferred to Pro Tools. Pro Tools and tape transfer just had a little flick that was good.
LC: With the Wilco record, were you involved from the beginning to end on that?
Yeah. I got a co-production credit with the band, which is spectacular. I'm very, very proud of that after all these years of working with them. I've been working with Wilco since 1996 or '7.
LC: On Being There?
Yeah, Being There was my first one. I've done several records with them since — Summerteeth and Sky Blue Sky and a couple of other projects. Last fall Jeff called and wanted to know if I would come to Chicago. The plan was for me to come to The Loft, hang around for a couple days and just see what was going on. TJ [Doherty] was there working with them and they had been recording demos on and off for a few months. They played me several songs and I was there while they were doing some overdubs. They're all very busy. Jeff has a family and he's dedicated — kids are coming in and out. It's a little chaotic up at their Loft, but it's a good, healthy kind of a thing. They were going after it the way they had gone after Sky Blue Sky. The difference was that Sky Blue Sky was really great and this was a little underdeveloped for whatever reason. Even though I admired some of the songs, there was a darkness to it and a sleepiness to it. The excitement of discovery wasn't there — what you can get with a live track or a track that's somewhat new. After I had been home for a few days, Jeff called and asked me what I thought. I said, "I think the songs are great, but I think we need to do this for real. We need to start over and get great takes and great sounds. That was that discussion and he asked me if I would make a record with them. Later we ended up all being in New Zealand around Christmas [2008].
LC: Right, for the 7 Worlds Collide [compilation album to benefit Oxfam]?
Yeah. Only in rock 'n' roll. It was an opportunity for a bunch of diverse artists to work together. I was invited to produce, mix and engineer. We were down there for about six weeks and people were co-writing and collaborating. Neil Finn from Crowded House has an organization called 7 Worlds Collide, and in 2001 he invited his brother Tim, Phil Selway and Ed O'Brien from Radiohead, Johnny Marr, Lisa Germano, Sebastian Steinberg and Eddie Vedder. He assembled an all-star cast to come down, rehearse up a show, do a couple of concerts, raise some money for Oxfam, put out a live record and a live DVD and have a fun experiment. Flash forward to Winter 2008/9. He decided to go one better — get more people and do an album of original songs that were created for the project in collaboration, as well as to do some gigs, film those and make a live album and DVD. Over Christmas and New Year's we all went down there. It was chaos for a month — people running up and down between three studios. "I need you to play a guitar solo. Hey I need a bridge for this song. I need a drummer! We need percussion. We need horns on this. We need strings on this song." At the end of it there's a double album — 24 songs recorded, mixed and mastered. We also did three gigs over three nights and we recorded those, and that will be a DVD and a live album. It's just terrific. Everybody donated their time, all of the songwriters donated their publishing and we all got to go to New Zealand [during] their summertime. We were on fire, studios were working, mics were everywhere and things were always set up. The original plan was when that was done to do the Wilco record in Chicago. But one day Jeff said, "Do you need to go home?" I'd already been there five weeks. "Could you just stay and we'll start our record?" I thought, "That's a good idea." We were already all set up in Neil Finn's studio.
LC: I've heard it's a nice place.
Roundhead Studios — it's beautiful, with a terrific old Neve console that used to belong to The Who. Unfortunately we didn't have the whole Wilco band, so that was the only kind of curve ball. We only had John [Stirratt] and Glenn [Kotche] and Pat [Sansone] and Jeff. Nels [Cline] and Mikael [Jorgensen] didn't come down. We cut all of the tracks for the record except for a couple. Jeff sang live as the guys played and we recorded on tape and it was rockin'. After that I went to Chicago and did the overdubs with Mikael and Nels. The parts that had been worked on earlier that year were then put onto the music, plus new ideas too.
LC: Like flying things in?
No. New playing, although I think we flew in an organ part from one of the demos. That's the beauty of Pro Tools. Different tempo, but same key and same arrangement, so you just slide things in and out. I've got to say it was a better organ sound. Good is good, you know? And other things — background vocals, horns, synthesizers, experiments, noises and what not...
LC: Did you end up doing any arrangement shifting when you got to that point?
No, not much — I would say no. Maybe there were a couple of edits during mixing, just to get to the point. Then we came back out and mixed it here. Jeff and Patrick came out. We did some emergency vocals and a couple of overdubs here and mixed until we were happy. It didn't take long. The whole thing from the first date in New Zealand to the final mix I think was about eight weeks. And add a lot of travel time, too. I went in and out of New Zealand, in and out of Chicago three times and then out here.
LC: Were you juggling other projects in that time yourself?
I was juggling the 7 Worlds Collide project around Wilco. That needed to be mixed. That wasn't really done done, so I mixed on my days off. On Sundays I was down here mixing 7 Worlds Collide songs and sending them to Neil Finn in New Zealand, which is four hours earlier, tomorrow. It was a lot of fun. You've got to just laugh at those moments and feel fortunate that you're able to work every day. One of these days the phone will stop ringing and that will be it for me, but so far my career has been great. I've been very lucky.
LC: I was doing a lot of research on you. You really dove in and tried to learn as much as you could from the get go.
Without a doubt. I was at least ten years older than everybody else at the time that I started. I came out of USC with a degree in geology and worked as a geologist for about six years or so. By the time I went to work at the Record Plant as a gofer I was almost 30. The guy that trained me to be a gofer was 18. Everyone was a little younger than me. Being a little older actually worked out to my advantage — I already had life experience. If my job as janitor was to clean the bathroom, I just did it right and then I did the next job they give me right and I got a reputation for doing things right. "Who should do this job? We need somebody to take this guy to the airport." "Ask Jim because Jim will get him there on time." "We need somebody to go get five sandwiches. It's Brooks Arthur and he's not having a good day, so we need the sandwich to be right when it comes back." You make sure if somebody wants pickles, he has pickles. You check the order. You check the cassette when somebody says, "Make a cassette of the new Rod Stewart record and take it over to Rod Stewart's house." You don't just make a cassette and run up there. You make a cassette and then you listen to it. If the cassette doesn't sound good you make another. I don't think it's hard, but you've got to have a pride in it — in anything. Just do a great job and somebody will recognize it and hire you again. If you do a really crummy job they definitely will not hire you again. It's not just about recording and engineering. It's about anything, any job.
LC: Were you studying the recording equipment, reading manuals when you could?
No. I was studying the people. The Record Plant had an all-star cast of talent. Tom Dowd was there every day working. You know, Tom Dowd was there. What else do you say to that? There was Lee DeCarlo, Ron Nevison, Andy Johns, Gary Ladinsky, [Reinhold] Mack, John Boylan, Brooks Arthur, Bob Margouleff and Pat Moran — the list goes on and on of great producers and engineers that I was able to observe and work with. I worked with Andy Johns and Lee DeCarlo as an assistant. That's a treat and an experience. You learn a lot and you learn really quickly. Despite whatever is going on, at the end of the night something happened to the music, something really good and exciting. You watch where they put the mics and you listen to how they mix and when they call you in the middle of the night and they say, "Set me up for tomorrow," that meant, "Do what I always do and I don't need to tell you because you should know by now." You get the mics and you get the compressors and you patch it in and you set the mic pre back. It's not that hard, but you've got to pay attention. Even my contemporaries, the guys that I worked with — there was a competition amongst us to be great. We had pride in the Record Plant and we wanted it to be the best. That led to some really good careers. I've been very lucky to work almost 30 years in the business, but so have Mike Clink, David Bianco, Paul Broucek, Ricky and Eddie Delena, Mike Beiriger and Bill Benton. They all have had long careers and gone on to win a lot of Grammys. It was a really good place to be at the right time.
LC: Do you think anyone is getting that kind of mentoring these days?
Well, they get it here. [laughter]
LC: Do you have interns or assistants?
I've had a couple. I have a great engineer who I work with — Kevin Dean, who is a veteran of Sunset Sound. Kevin's been up here for a couple of years as my Pro Tools guy and as an engineer. He's done his own projects here, but he works with me all of the time. Before that I had Steven Rhodes, who was a Cello guy — a fine recording engineer and he has a nice career going now. I've had a couple of interns. One of them was my nephew, who wanted to try to get into the business. He lived with me and worked here for a year and learned a lot. He's in college, playing in all kinds of bands, combos and orchestras and scoring films. I had another kid who was here for a quite a while. It didn't actually work out for him, but he gave it a shot. It provides a better service if there's a third person here, because I don't want to leave and get the coffee and Kevin can't leave. It is nice to have a runner, but I can't really employ anybody and the whole intern thing is suspicious. They need respect too. You can't just say, "Well, you can intern whenever I call you." That's not fair. They need to get something for their commitment. For my next runner, I think I will call CalArts and see if there is somebody in the recording program who is interested.
LC: A lot of the schools make their students complete a certain amount of internship time to fulfill their credits.
That's true. It would help me. The place needs to be dusted up. There are a lot of people in and out of here and it needs attention. It's all part of it. I want PLYRZ to be perceived as a real, professional recording studio and not just a little home studio. Between what I bring to the table, the equipment that I've chosen and the space itself, all of it — the mics and the compressors, the instruments and everything — I have a huge investment here. I take it really seriously. I've mixed and produced enough records in here in the last four years to feel confident in what I've built.
LC: In a way you're not selling the space — you're selling you. That's a whole different thing.
That's a whole faction of the record business right now. For me to get my fee I have to provide all this. In the old days I would get my fee and go to Cello, the Village, Sound City or Sunset Sound — any of the great Neve rooms in town. But that's when there were budgets. Now there aren't. It's pretty terrifying, but we still keep a high standard and we still do good work. But now people ask me, "How many mixes can you do in a day?" Not, "How many days on a mix?"
LC: [laughter] That's true.
They are straight up. "Can you do two a day? Can you start a third?" The answer is, "Well, I don't know. I'll try, but it's still got to be a great mix and I don't always know who is voting. How many people get to comment on the snare sound and the bass up and the hi-hat?" There are only so many hours in the day and you can't mix the song any faster than the tape will play. But honestly, starting this place four years ago has really been a godsend. I've been able to provide a really great service for my clients. I can keep the budget down because I can earn my fee and I can also charge a reasonable rate for the studio and I cover everything else. If you work quickly, don't goof around, don't put off the obvious and just concentrate on what you have to do, it can go very quickly. I think the records are better for it. A spirited three- or four-hour mix is way better than a drudge- filled two-day "mix-by-committee back and forth to the record company, back and forth to the artist, back and forth to me" mix. If I rock a mix in four hours and you don't like it, I'd rather rock it again two days from now in two hours knowing what I know about the song and what you tell me, and it's still quicker. It's way more exciting and it's way more fun.
LC: Does the Neve console have automation?
No it doesn't, but I have a [Digidesign] Command 8. It's like a mouse, but it's "fingers on faders" and it controls the output of Pro Tools. It's not exactly the same as pushing up the fader on the Neve, because you're actually pushing up the output of Pro Tools to the console. If you're compressing something and you turn it up it gets quieter! But you can still automate your mix.
LC: Do you have the engineer or intern write down what you patched in and the settings?
I don't. When I was an assistant engineer at the Record Plant, I wrote down a million mixes on a lot of records and it was all for nothing. Taking pictures of the console, mix sheets — we'd draw up perfect versions of the console on paper and write down every setting and then even with total recall on the SSLs, there was still a lot of notation. Before I had my own studio, labels would insist on recalls and my poor assistants that worked for me all of those years just broke their backs writing everything down. In my humble opinion there's no reason for it — not [on] the kind of records I make. I make feel-good, loud rock 'n' roll records and that's what they are. Now that I own the place, I decree that we will not write down a mix. If you don't like the mix I will happily do it again for you. You tell me what you want or what's wrong and I will try my hardest to do that. It's not about, "Oh wait! Did we have a 'guitar up one half dB' mix?" I can't back that anymore. I cry for the landfill that's full of tapes of alternate mixes of albums that we've never heard. I believe that our favorite records had very few alternate mixes. They might have had a mix on Wednesday and another mix on Friday, which might have been the mono mix or something, but there are not a lot of alternate mixes on all of our favorite records from the '60s and '70s. It didn't become that way until later. It's unnecessary to me. I think if you make a mix and it moves you and moves the artist, you are done. And you might just for the sake of the mastering engineer do a vocal up and a vocal down and maybe a bass up. But that's about it.
LC: Yeah. I do a cappella and instrumental mixes of songs and I figure we could maybe save a mix if needed by combining them.
Absolutely. TV and instrumental mixes are the norm.
LC: What about stem mixes?
I have never had any luck with stems myself. Some people do. I've tried to do stems but to me the whole sound is the sound. I haven't had any luck printing stems and combining them and having it sound anything like the mix. If the vocal is wrong or you want to change the lyrics I would rather just put the vocal back in on top of the instrumental mix or just do it again. Mixing is fun. How long does it take? It's not that hard.
LC: You've gotten more mix jobs over the years as your career's progressed. Do you find that kind of fun, to pull up someone else's material?
Absolutely. It used to be a lot of fun when you had other people's tapes. You run the risk these days of really bad recordings coming from inexperienced recording engineers with bad technique in bad situations on Pro Tools. It used to be that you could only record at a recording studio, and hopefully that studio had a tape recorder, a microphone, a mic preamp, a compressor and a trained engineer. In some cases, and for some artists, those days are gone because great recording studios are kind of a thing of the past and people are recording at home. After a young guy buys his computer, does he have any money for an expensive German microphone, a tube compressor or anything that sounds good? The answer most of the time is, "No." There are still a lot of fine recording engineers, talented kids that are really learning and doing great things, but some tracks come in in bad shape. Unconsolidated and edited improperly — there are clicks, pops and ticks and things aren't ready to mix. Kevin spends a lot of time de-essing vocals and doing new crossfades and fixing edits. This is precious time over here — they should have done that at home.
