You like to use a good room space to get sound on the whole band. That's one of the things you're kind of known for. Steve's [Albini] also kind of known for it too, using the acoustic space to get really good drum sounds and stuff like that, as opposed to just close mic'ing.
The first time I heard a record Steve had recorded I was really blown away by it. It was probably the Pixies record or the Wedding Present or Jesus Lizard. I learned a lot about that "live-room" type of recording from him and then I guess I've taken it in my own direction. But the basic recording methodology... the way I record using the room sound... I learned it from Steve. I guess that's sort of lame, but I don't know what to tell you. He's been my engineering mentor. Those records sounded really great to me and I wanted to know how to get those sounds. So I asked him how he did it and then tried to do what he described as best as I could. But of course it doesn't come out quite the same. Over the phone I would ask him how to tune drums, or which mics to use and where to put them. Obviously, these sorts of things can't be adequately described over the phone, so what I did became my version of the "Steve-method". I would try to do what he described, but would use my ears to guide me and figure out what worked best — what sounded good to me. I will still ask Steve questions and we'll discuss different things we've each been trying lately. I suppose I've moved from apprentice up to colleague. In the beginning, I would do it all by rote. Now I understand why I'm using a certain mic and where I'm putting it and can make reasoned decisions about all this. But the basic recording method is still very similar.
More just the approach?
It's more not being afraid to use plenty of the ambiance mics in the mix and really paying attention to the live sound of the drum set. I assume you're mostly talking about the drums?
That's where I hear it. It seems to be on other things too.
It has to do with paying a lot of attention to getting the drums tuned right, having a good sounding room, and knowing where to put the kit in the room.
Do you ever feel like you're kind of in the shadow of Steve in a way. Recording wise or... You always get lumped in with him.
When I first started doing recording it really served me well. My association with Steve really helped. What can I say? I've learned so much from him.
He's a really great engineer. He's a really great teacher. When I was first working in Chicago, it definitely got me more work than I would have had if I was just sitting in Boston telling people I was a recording engineer. That helped out, so I can't really complain about it. Yet today people will come up to me, people I know, friends of mine, and ask, "So, are you still working with Steve?" What do you mean working with Steve? I have never worked with Steve. I once worked for him, but that was six years ago. He and I have never made a record together.
Besides Shellac, but you're not...
Right, but we have never collaborated as engineers on a project. I was there for the Nirvana record, but I was mainly there in case something blew up. Some people assume that we are tag-team partners, or something.
Do you ever get to do pre-production with bands?
I don't think I ever have.
It'd be nice, wouldn't it?
I don't know. I've never done it so it's hard to say. It would be interesting to try that more involved pre-production thing where I work with the band before the actual recording. Right now for me, pre-production would be making sure all the gear worked right and making sure there were no hums or buzzes. Make sure the amps work and the drums work and aren't squeaking and don't have parts falling off them. I was recording this band a few weeks ago and three of the tension rods on the bass drum didn't work.
They were just all stripped?
Yeah.
No one noticed, huh?
No. It was a bummer. But with the drums, another thing I have to keep in mind is the cash situation for the band. If there's a label paying for it I'll say, "Hey, you should get top and bottom heads for the toms. You should get new heads for everything." If they're coming in to do two songs in one day and they're paying out of their pocket I'll say, "Lets just use what's already on the drums." If they want to spend a little I'll say, "Okay, we'll do the top heads." You know, you have to balance it all out. But if the budget's available, I try to get them to get all new drumheads. Although I usually prefer the Ambassadors, certain people sound better with Emperors. If they're hitting so hard that the Ambassadors are just completely deformed within an hour, then I'll get them to use Emperors. But the Ambassador, because it's a single-ply head, resonates louder and longer — it doesn't dampen itself. If you can get the heads tuned to the resonance of the drum shell, when you whack that thing it excites the shell and everything and the whole thing is loud and full sounding.
When we were discussing preproduction you brought up a good point, that if the gear sounds good, part of your battle is already won as far as recording.
It's true. Sometimes people ask, "Oh, do you have amps at the studio?" or "We're gonna borrow a drum kit," or "We're gonna borrow an amp for the recording." That always freaks me out a little bit. I ask, "Aren't you used to your sound?" Or, "Haven't you been working on a sound that you like in the practice space for the last year getting ready for this record? Why are you all of a sudden going to change things for this record?" That always seems silly to me.
They might be uncomfortable using the new gear, too, which might throw off the performance.
Yeah, or they'll say, "When we get to the studio we can work on guitar sounds." I'm like, "Look, if you haven't already worked on your guitar sound, I don't know what help I'm going to be. Do you want me to stand in front of the amp and turn the treble up and down for you?" I'm talking about bands that have a very limited budget. They can't afford much time in the studio, so I don't want them to waste it trying to find some mystery "perfect" guitar sound. It's about efficient use of the expensive studio time.
The idea that people should come in ready to go...
The bands that we record are BANDS. They operate as a band. They have a vision for what they want the music to sound like. They want it to sound like what it sounds like in the practice space. They've been working on the songs for a year and I assume that they want the same guitar sound they've been using. I'm surprised when they don't seem to like that sound and want to come up with a new one in the studio
Looking at the guitar and then looking at you and saying, "Does it sound good?"
"I don't know. Does it sound good? You tell me. It's your record."
Do you think that bands that want to record the way you like to record are finding you? It doesn't seem like you're going to be hammering them into doing it a certain way.
Of course not. I'll record any way they want. And not all the bands I record want to have that live big room sound anyhow. A lot of them do, but I record a lot that don't work that way. I record albums where they want it to be more separate and dead sounding and not as real sounding — strange sounds, nonrealistic sounds. When people hire an engineer they obviously are calling someone because they have heard records he has done and they're like, "Wow, this guy sounds like the engineer for me." So, of course, if they've heard other records I've done they'd hire me like they'd hire you based on records you've done.
Yeah, I think like The Kung Fu's definitely sought you out.
They said they e-mailed me as a gag. They didn't think anything would come of it. They thought it was funny. They e-mailed me asking, "Can you record us?" And I e-mailed back, "Yeah, sure. When?"
What did they think? That because they've seen your name on records they own you were unreachable or something?
Apparently. It completely blows my mind when people tell me this. I don't have lots of work, but at the same time, for some reason, some bands just assume I won't record them. Or that I'm too busy. Or that I'm too expensive. Or that I only approach bands — bands aren't allowed to approach me about recording. I don't know where in the world this came from. I have never approached a band to record them. I get my work from word of mouth or people just calling me up out of the blue. When I hear that someone's afraid to call me or assumes they can't call me, I can't even believe it.
I think there's a lot of hero worship going on in rock n' roll. Not that you're someone's hero, but they might think that you're in a different league cause your name is on a few records they really like.
Yeah, but they don't think about the records I've done that they would probably hate. Sometimes people e-mail me saying, "I'd like to send you my tape and hear what you think about it." I'm flattered that they'd be interested in my opinion, but I'm not a music critic or an A&R guy. Why in the world do they want to know what I, personally, think of their music? They don't know what my taste is like. They assume that my taste corresponds to the records they own that I recorded. They assume that I've hand-selected those bands, and if I like their tape, they must be as good as these bands that they love. My personal taste has nothing to do with who I record. What they don't seem to realize is: 1. Those bands all picked me to record them. I didn't choose them, and 2. For every Rodan or Archer's of Loaf record I've worked on, I've done 100 other bands that they'd hate. They don't think about that part. Or the fact that I'm a Sheryl Crow fan, for instance.
You don't do every single job that anyone talks to you about?
I do. I don't recall ever turning one down.
Really? You've been lucky then, in a way.
I've been really lucky. I've enjoyed almost every single record I've worked on, even though most of the bands I had never heard of before I recorded them. I think a lot of it has to do with being in a band and making a lot of friends over the years. When I first started recording I was friends with the guys in Sebadoh, so I got to record them a little bit. I met the guys in Polvo and later ended up doing an album with them. It was one of the first full LPs that I recorded. It was just because I'd met them a bunch of times and really liked them.
That Thinking Fellers EP [Admonishing The Bishops] was one of the first things you did, wasn't it.
Yeah, like the... the third thing I recorded. The Volcano Suns had played with them a few times and I had mixed them live on the radio in Boston once. I didn't totally know what I was doing in the studio yet during that EP session, but acted very confidently, like I had everything under control. I went to see them play the night after we finished and got really bummed out. They sounded so great live, I thought I had totally blown it in the studio. But I listened to that EP recently and thought, "Ahhhh, this IS ok, isn't it?" I think it was the very first time I recorded at Steve's. That was when I first moved out there to work for him as his studio tech. He hired me with the understanding that if the studio wasn't booked I could book bands in there too.
That's great. That was at his house?
It was a bungalow on the northwest side of Chicago.
That's crazy.
It worked out great. Hundreds of great sounding records came out of that house.
Apparently.
I don't know if I could do that. I don't know if I could have my house be the studio. The basement was the studio and the attic was the control room. Steve lived on the first floor. There was a kitchen, a living room, an office and a bathroom. And when a band was playing in the basement the whole first floor would be vibrating. Gratings would be going [makes loud vibrating grate noise].
Out of the bands that you've done, The Rachel's was something that I heard that was really different from the rock stuff.
Yeah I love recording The Rachel's.
Did you do a lot of that live? Or are you doing it in pieces. It seemed like it would be done in pieces.
No, most of it's live. But there's this new Rachel's album coming out where the recording is a little different. It's called Selenography. I know The Rachel's because I recorded the Rodan record. That's been my connection to a bunch of Louisville bands. People from Rodan are in Sonora Pine and June of 44, who I recorded. I also helped out on a Shipping News album and I've done a bunch for the Rachel's. Jason, from Rodan and the Rachel's, and I get along really well. He is really interested in recording and has picked up a lot. He's really good at it. He did all the Shipping News basic recording. So anyway, for the Rachel's we need to get a good piano and a real studio space to get the basic thing recorded. If it's a song that has piano we'll record it all live at the studio. A new thing we did on this last session was to put rough mixes down to 2 tracks of a DA-88 that those guys bought. Then they went home to Louisville and filled both their DA- 88s up with overdubs. We also would do overdubs onto the 24-track. So when we finally mixed this record at Steve's studio, Electrical, we used almost every fader on his 48 channel Neotek console as well as the automation. It was the only automated mix I'd ever done and it was necessary. We had the 24-track and both DA-88s running on some songs and on other songs we had only two channels going.
Oh my god.
The Rachel's is really fun to record because the instrumentation from song to song is radically different. It goes from string octet to solo harpsichord to piano, viola, cello, electric guitar, drumset. One of my best engineered records is a Rachel's record called Music for Egon Schiele. We recorded it at the University of Louisville in a recital hall on one of those Otari 1/2" 8-tracks. It was piano, cello, and viola. I just used six mics. I love the way that thing sounds.
Was it a good sounding space?
Yeah, it was a huge recital hall. It had a beautiful piano, as well. One of the best I've ever heard.
How long have you've been doing recording as a full time gig, just trying to get that to work?
I guess when I moved to Chicago, which was about seven years ago. It wasn't really full time at first. At first I was an employee of Steve's — his studio tech. So when I recorded bands the money went into the studio and I still got my normal weekly paycheck. I suppose you'd call that a house engineer type job. I worked there for about a year and a half until I had too much recording work and couldn't keep up with the tech work anymore. I couldn't keep everything fixed. So I thought it would be best if he got a real full time tech guy and I went freelance on the recording.
Have you worked at a lot of different studios since then?
Yeah. But I prefer working at Steve's place because I had so much to do with it and still do. It feels like home. In his new building I did all the audio systems design: the wiring, layout and design, and patchbays and everything. I also designed the power system — the AC system. It's a balanced power system with some fancy grounding.
How did you learn all this?
I worked for a studio designer and I learned a lot of this from him. He designs studios, he's an acoustician, and he's a brilliant audio electronics guy. You can give him any piece of audio gear and he will make it sound a hundred times better. The other half I picked up from a radio station engineer named Grady Moates.
Who is the studio designer?
Bob Alach from Wellesley, Mass. He has a company called Alactronics. I worked for him for a couple of years. I did some architectural and electrical drafting for him. I learned a lot about studio wiring from him. He does recording studios, video editing suites, TV station audio, what else... control rooms, auditoriums, sound reinforcement, listening rooms, mastering labs and things. So I got a lot of the wiring knowledge from him. A lot of the systems knowledge from him. I still call him whenever I do this kind of work.
He knows it pretty well then?
Oh yeah, he's a brilliant man and a good friend. He designed one of the best sounding control rooms I have ever been in.
Where's that?
It's gone now, but it was at this studio in Boston called Squid Hell. It was in a house. A competing studio called the zoning board and had them shut down. The sheriff came down and made them take their gear out. All because this other studio was losing business to them. So they're moving. They're buying a building and starting over.
And it was a great sounding control room?
The control room was unbelievable. I was blown away.
I talked to Jack Endino [#13] about moving from studio to studio, keeping consistency. The problem he's found are that monitors and rooms are so different. What method do you use to get consistency?
I just read that interview and I saw that he carries around a spectrum analyzer. I've been wanting to do that for a while now. But the one that I want, this crazy Danish model, is pretty expensive. I have speakers that I carry around that I love.
What do you use?
These home hi-fi audiophile speakers. They're B&Ws — Model 805. They're the baby version of the big famous 801s, which are what all these classical music audiophile geeks use.
Are they pretty flat?
I don't know, they just sound right. I mixed on NS10s for a really long time, and Tannoys and lots of other speakers. I had these AR home bookshelf speakers that I mixed on for a while too. With every single other speaker I mixed on I always had to tell the band, "Okay so you make it sound good on these, but you should have a little too much guitar." Or, "Don't worry that there's no low end. Trust me it's there."
Right, I say that all the time.
So when I first heard these, Shellac was at Abbey Road [#11]. We were using them and I was just blown away by how they sounded. I just tried to mix things to sound good on these speakers and the mixes translated everywhere. The mastering engineers didn't have to do as much to my work. The songs I mixed on them sounded good in a car, my home stereo, on a boombox, and to the band when they went home. It translated everywhere, so I'm like, "I'm buying a pair". I bought a pair, I bought a road case and they come with me.
Are they expensive?
They're sort of expensive. I bought mine in the UK where they're made, so I don't know what they cost over here. Probably a thousand bucks or something.
But if it's something you that can really help you.
They really help me a lot. The other thing about them that's so amazing is that you can sit there and listen to them all day and there's no ear fatigue. If I listened to NS10s for a couple of hours, I would just walk out of the control room and be like, "Don't talk. Don't make any sound, I don't want to hear anything. My head hurts." It was really draining.
I like the NS10 at low volume for mixing. Check my mixes on them kind of quiet. There's that midrange bump, it kind of helps me hear what's going on placement-wise. Then I use my Tannoys.
I've mixed with Tannoys, I don't have a problem with them. I've always wondered why there are studio monitors and home stereo speakers. Why are there two different lines made by two different groups of people? Why wouldn't you mix on speakers that the people at home will listen on? I could never figure that one out. I guess part of it is studio monitors are more robust — they can take higher levels. Maybe that's all there is to it. So that's what I use. Home hi-fi monitors work great for me. You know when you hit the wrong button and your speakers squeal, or go Ka-blam! Or you blow a tweeter on an NS10? I've had those same types of sounds come through mine and they've never even blinked. They can take more punishment for some reason. So I carry around those, and my microphones. That's all I really care about.
What mics do you like to bring?
I have a briefcase with pretty much all of my mics and I usually end up using all of them.
You have some Coles I heard.
I have one Coles mic, which I don't use that often. I love it on strings and it sounds awesome on electric guitars. But it can't really handle the chug-chug-chug guitar low end. They fart out, so I don't use them all the time. I've started using the BK-5 ribbon mic from RCA on electric guitars a lot.
Where do you find stuff at?
The first time I did any work for Steve I was still living in Boston and I flew out and wired his studio. It was long before he ever asked me to work for him full time. I wired his studio and he paid me by giving me a batch of starter mics. A little starter kit. I think the [Coles] STC 4038 was part of that starter kit. He just finds used gear, he's a real good scrounger.
I was wondering if you had any suggestion for getting a good electric bass sound for rock albums. I just want to pick your brain, see if you had any suggestion or ideas for recording that. Mics, DI, not DI, amp settings, where to put the amp...
I usually spend the least amount of time on the bass. It always seems to sound okay.
