There’s a track that you co-wrote on Lily Allen's West End Girl called “Fruityloop.” I did a little research on you, and you started out producing on FruityLoops [FL Studio].
I did. I started producing on FruityLoops. I tried [Steinberg] Cubase for a bit and then ended up in [Apple] Logic. I use Ableton [Live] a little bit now, but mostly Logic.
I am curious about how you made the transition from bedroom producer to dubstep, originally. Would you call it that?
No, not really. I was living in London at that time, and my first releases were on Skream’s [Disfigured Dubz] label, and what I was doing was adjacent to what was going on in the UK. It was like early dubstep, but it wasn't really. I was into artists like Burial, early James Blake, and Mount Kimbie. That was, at that time, considered part of the dubstep scene, and that's so different to what I associate with dubstep, so I can't really think of myself as ever having made that.
How much credence do you give to genre labels?
I feel that's been a blessing and a curse for me. The whole time I've been making music, I feel I never neatly fit into anything. I grew up being such a fan of dance music, electronic music – raving as a teenager – and super into UK club music, but I don't think I ever fit anywhere, neatly, in the dance music scene. That’s really who I am as a producer. That’s why I love working with different artists. I love dipping into different people's worlds, working with them, and then moving onto something else. It’s so fun for me.
It seems you're moving steadily towards the pop world. Do you still continue to add variety?
Producing for other people, it's just whatever. I'm working on crazy dance music with Parris [Goebel], and the Lily [Allen] album is completely different to anything I've done. I've done Jorja Smith, BANKS, and Fletcher, but when I release my own music, that's just for me. I feel like I can have freedom to experiment and make stuff that I would play. That's what I enjoy releasing. When I was releasing music during the pandemic, I wasn't experiencing night life – no one was. At the same time, I had just moved to L.A. to explore producing. I like releasing music, and I'm not a fan of working on stuff and having no control over whether it comes out or not. That’s why I like having a project. At the time, I was trying as a producer, and maybe it swayed more pop because my focus was working on other people's music. But going forward, I don't feel the need to do that for my project as much.
It seems like you lit up a little bit talking about your own music.
Yeah, it's all weirdly the same for me – working on my music or working on music for someone else. They feed each other in such a nice way. I give myself more permission, probably, to experiment and mess around with sounds. That is important for anything I do – having time to play around with the intention of making music that I'd want to release. But sometimes that ends up finding its way into someone else's project. I feel I wouldn't start ideas like that if I wasn't thinking about putting it out for my project. It keeps that playfulness of making music just for the enjoyment of it.
There is that interplay between working on your own music and working with others, but you do seem to genuinely love your role as a collaborator as well. What are your best qualities as a collaborator?
I'm learning more and more to trust my instincts. I think I have a good instinct for hooks. After learning to produce for years and working on my own, I get so inspired working with people that do things that I don't do. It's such a solitary, lonely way to create. I mean, I love it as well. When I'm working with people a lot, it feels amazing to have those days back on my own, just messing around. But when I'm working on my own, I tend to be in the same patterns. The way I make music doesn't shift as much as when I'm getting in with someone else and seeing how they create. I find it inspiring. I love working with other people.
You mentioned hooks being something that you have some skill with, and I've noticed that as I was listening to your work. Repetition is such a key quality in your music. How do you experience repetition in music as a listener, and how does that influence how you incorporate it as a songwriter and producer?
Coming from a background in dance music, it is all about repetition. Applying that way of thinking about composition in pop music is interesting. The dynamic and contrast of where I place something can feel so different. It’s that tension and release. I love that in production. I love that about dance music. Repetition is great.
It can be hard for a certain kind of writer to use as well.
Yeah, it's like simplifying.
What are your favorite ways to convey emotion through the production techniques that you use? Are there certain effects to use to convey maybe sadness or a dissociated quality?
