You're a producer, an artist, and a drummer – it's an interesting career path.
Yeah, I started as a drummer, and it's kind of my main instrument. But I also get antsy and want to do other things. I'm taking a drawing class starting next week, and I'm very excited. I'm terrible at drawing.
You'll get better! [laughter]
I hope so.
The most important thing I learned in art classes was to stop assuming what you think you're seeing, but rather to examine what you're really looking at and how it appears in that moment.
Yeah. I'm excited.
Whenever we bring outside influences like that into our lives, it enriches everything we do.
I always doodle, and I will draw when I'm on the phone. It's terrible, but it's fun. I'm excited to be able to use a different part of my brain and look at things differently, which I know will help with songwriting and music. I've always wanted to do this, but I was either on tour or busy, so it was hard to commit to even eight weeks.
Your last main record, From Where I Started, was co-produced with my pal, John Morgan Askew (see John interview here).
I love John. We have so much fun together.
How did you two meet?
I think one of the Blitzen Trapper guys said, "You need to work with John. He's really good with female vocals." He came to one of my shows when I played in Portland, and we hit it off. Then I went down to his house, because he had all of his studio gear at his house at the time. I really liked his vibe.
Did that make John an obvious choice to engineer and mix Margo Cilker's first record, Pohorylle?
Yeah. I've pretty much always produced my own music. I have a microphone at my house, and I can get this done. I'm terrible at Pro Tools, but I can make it work. I get frustrated, but I can get the core of what I need and bring it to the band. My friend, Bart Budwig, is a musician, and he's on Fluff and Gravy Records as well. [The label Margo Cilker's also on. -Ed.] I had met him a long time ago in Idaho when we were both playing a show. He's hilarious. Before I knew who Margo was, he texted me and said, "My friend, Margo Cilker (see Margo interview here), wants you to produce her record." I was like, "What?" I had never done that for other people. I know how it works, and I have confidence in that. Taking on someone else's songs was a new experience for me. She was living in Enterprise, Oregon, at the time, and I said, "Send me some demos." She sent me some demos and we got on the phone. It was something about her energy where I was like, "Oh, I get this girl." We have a similar awkwardness, and we don't take ourselves too seriously, but we are very serious. We kept talking on the phone, and I started really listening to her demos. I thought to myself, "Oh, I totally know exactly what to do here." She said, "I want you to play drums." I was trying to figure it out, "How am I going to make this work?" To be able to take the song, put the drums on, and make sense in my brain of how this was going to work. We finally figured it out: I got my friend, Rebecca Young, an amazing bass player, to play on this. Margo came up here, and that's how we started it. I thought, "If we can get John on board, I know it's going to be amazing. If we have a good idea before we get into the studio, so we don't waste a bunch of time, we're going to nail this." John said yes, and we finally set studio time. Margo came up here months before we went in the studio, and I recorded some of our demos in the practice space with us three and that really helped me. I come from rhythm, so producing is very much the drums, the bass, and the song.
That makes sense.
I really connected with her songs. I knew that I could make sure that they didn't get overproduced; I wanted to keep them raw and beautiful. I was gaining confidence in that, but I was also terrified because I was responsible for this girl's fate. I feel protective of her songs and especially the vocals. I want to make sure that they are front and center, and that they sound great. Margo's songs are so beautiful, lyrically, and I want that to show more than anything else. The music – the drums, the bass, and everything else – I don't want it to be too much. I had a really good team in place, and we went in as a three-piece and did the drums, and bass, and guitar. Margo did a lot of her vocals live, too. After we'd get the drums recorded, and the core of the song, I'd ask Margo, "Are you feeling good about it?" and she'd be excited. We brought in amazing musicians to fill it in. I did both of her records the same way, because that's worked out well.
Before all this, when you were playing drums with Carissa's Wierd, or later bands with Ben Bridwell and Band of Horses, were you watching the studio process and thinking, "I like this. I don't like that."?
I know what sounds good. I used to play drums for my very talented friend, Patrick Park. I learned a lot from him. When we were young, a lot of the studio work we were doing was to tape. As a drummer, that's the most terrifying thing; if I screwed up then we'd have to do the whole damn thing over again. I got good at playing to click tracks. I learned early on that I loved recording, and I loved being in a studio. I thought about going to a recording school, but I never have. I get overwhelmed with so much technology. It's like, "I just want to play it!" I learned a lot when I was younger by watching people, like you said. It'd be, "Oh, I could have done that." Or, "That doesn't make sense. Don't do that." Or, "That sounds amazing." When I recorded my first record [Sera Cahoone], it's not like I wasn't trying to be this "big musician" or something. I just wanted to record a record, I wanted to play the drums, and I wanted to do everything. That was the fun of it to me. I did okay on my first record, but I could have probably used a click track in certain times and different things like that that I've learned. But I really like the process of it, and I think I'm good at it and I'm gaining my confidence. Saying, "I'm a producer" is sometimes strange. I guess I'm a producer. I know how this thing works, I have very strong opinions, and I think they're good opinions. But I do think being a drummer and listening to so many projects has helped me in a lot of ways.
Has studio work changed the way you play drums? Like finding that less busy parts sound more elegant in the studio, or have more room to breathe?
I've definitely learned a lot about drumming and overplaying. Less is more in pretty much everything these days. There are certainly little parts where I can choose to just add the smallest fill. But now, without tape, if I go and record, I can ask, "Can you take that part out?" It's a lot easier as a drummer to ask, "Can we start over?" Or, "Can you use the one kick there instead of the two? I don't know why I did that." With my own songs, I don't like too much going on. It bothers my brain. Even drumming for people like Carissa's Wierd, there's not much in it. I love the space, and the drums were so simple. I really do believe the rhythm section is the key to a lot of songs. A lot of people get it right, but some people get it wrong. It makes a difference in how the song could have gone. With Margo, I don't think I'm the kind of producer that's saying, "We're going to rewrite all your lyrics." I didn't have to do that with her, obviously, because she's brilliant. But I tend to be more like, "Let's get to the core what we need."
Starting with a three-piece backing track is brilliant. It leaves space!
All three of us together, we just love each other. It's a good vibe. We enjoy each other, and that makes a huge difference for Margo. The first time we went in, I said, "We're going to use a click track, so start practicing to that." She said, "Okay." She is really, really sweet, and with us and John all being chill, it's a cool team to go in and have fun. And we did.
