How did your work with The Doobie Brothers start?
Lenny [Waronker] called me while I was still working at Sunwest. He asked me to come up to San Francisco; there was a band he wanted me to hear. I told him I was still working for Sunwest and that I couldn't do a Warner Bros. album up there. He said, "Come up anyway." So, I flew up, went to a rehearsal, and listened to The Doobie Brothers. They were fantastic! Ted [Templeman] and Lenny recorded their first album up there [at Pacific Recorders], and when they came back with the completed album, I mastered it with them at Location Recording [Service]. About a year later, when I was working for Warner Bros., Ted asked me to record their second album.
For that album, Toulouse Street, The Doobies had tracked some material at Wally Heider Studios before Ted got involved.
Yes, they had some good tracks; we used "Toulouse Street, "White Sun," and "Snake Man." We did the other tracks, the vocals, overdubs, mixes, and mastering at Amigo [Studios, Warner Bros. North Hollywood Recording Studios].
The sonics on that record are incredible.
They were a great band, easy to record, and everything just worked out. It was also one of the last records we did at Amigo with the 16-track 3M M56 tape machine.
What do you remember about tracking "Listen to the Music"?
We started to record the track with Pat [Simmons] and Tom [Johnston] playing guitars through their amps in the studio, but Ted wanted something else. He suggested recording them direct and mic'ing their strings. I put them in our vocal booth, and they played live with Tiran [Porter, bass] and Michael [Hossack, drums] with headphones. Tom's lead vocal and the backgrounds were great, and Pat's banjo and steel drums are a great touch. The mix just came together. Ted tells me phasing the center breakdown was my idea; I thought it was his!
The other thing that stands out is how great the rhythm section was.
Yes. Tiran was fantastic, and he and Michael built a powerful foundation.
If I'm remembering right, there are no tracks with John Hartman and Michael Hossack both drumming on this album?
We always had both drum sets ready to record throughout Toulouse Street, but we rarely cut tracks that way. Ted would usually have them record with Michael.
Billy Payne of Little Feat played piano on "Rockin' Down the Highway" and "Don't Start Me to Talkin'," plus organ on "Cotton Mouth" and "Jesus is Just Alright." Whose idea was it to bring him in for the sessions?
It was Ted's idea. Whenever Billy came to a session, things got better.
His organ playing gave the songs a wonderful texture.
Billy played a Hammond B-3 and Leslie [speaker]; the best sounding Leslie I ever recorded. He could get seemingly any sound out of it that he wanted. He was terrific with that rig.
On "Jesus is Just Alright," Billy really shines.
The perfect touch. His notes and dynamics couldn't be better.
Did you and Ted have Pat and Tom sing along while you tracked?
I don't remember them singing along on anything when we cut the tracks. Later on, Michael McDonald would almost always sing and play live.
The cover of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Don't Start Me to Talkin'" is one of my favorite Doobies songs.
With that song, I didn't quite know how to mix it. But Lee Herschberg [Tape Op #154] came in and he had no problems. Thanks, Lee!
"Listen to the Music" sounds like it was recorded yesterday. What stands out to you when you listen to it in 2023?
Everything about it. Great song, performance, and vocals.
Wikipedia lists an uncredited flute player on "Toulouse Street." Can we solve that mystery?
It was Pat, and it was a recorder – not a flute!
When Toulouse Street became a chart topper, I suspect Warner Bros. executives were pleasantly surprised, especially since the first record only sold something like ten thousand copies.
I'm sure they were happy! I thought the album would do very well, especially because we had "Listen to the Music."
When The Doobies became a hot act, how did that affect the time that you, Ted, and the band had to work on the follow up, The Captain and Me?
Success always requires another album ASAP, but I don't remember being too pressed for time.
That one opens with "Natural Thing," which features the ARP synthesizer.
Malcolm Cecil [Tape Op #44] and Robert Margouleff did the synths. Their parts were overdubbed; they didn't play live with the band.
You had worked with Malcolm previously, right?
Malcolm came to Sunwest around 1970. He was a very experienced engineer; he'd spent years with the BBC. He tried to teach me "the BBC way" to go about recording in many situations.
"Long Train Runnin'" was an absolute smash. What do you remember about it?
The Doobies sessions usually went smoothly. However, recording "Long Train Runnin'" included some tricky situations. When we recorded the track, at the end of the take Tom put his guitar down, walked out, and drove away! [laughs] So, when we did the mix, in order to have an ending long enough to fade out, we had to take one section and repeat it several times. The song also has a harmonica solo played by Tom. After he played the final note of the solo, he threw his harmonica down and walked out of Amigo! So, on the record, the solo ends with Tom's final note which Ted and I repeated five more times.
I guess you could have done what Ted calls a "Motown Fade" – you just drop all the faders in two seconds flat!
We didn't want that. We wanted it to sound like the band just kept playing and we faded it out.
On The Captain and Me, there are a number of songs, like "Without You," which feature Hartman and Hossack playing together. How did you approach having two drum sets in the room?
They were about ten feet apart. Studio A at Amigo was a big room, but we wanted the band as close together as possible. We used just a small part of the studio right next to the control room. Everything was baffled off, so it was pretty easy to do. The isolation in Amigo was very good.
Did you end up with a lot of leakage?
No, not enough to worry about, not in that room. But in Sunset Sound Studio 1, it would have sounded quite different.
The last time we talked, we discussed your knack for building a sonic rapport with guitar players like Eddie Van Halen, Lowell George, and Ronnie Montrose. Did you have that similar experience with Pat and Tom?
Yes. I had the good fortune of working with great players, and that really helps in getting good sounds. Tom Johnston and Pat Simmons are great players.
How did you mic Pat and Tom?
When they played acoustic guitars, I likely used [Neumann] U 87s. On their amps, probably a [Sony] C-37A or [Shure] SM57, but sometimes a U 87 or [Sennheiser] MD 421. I'd often take a direct, too.
The intro to "China Grove" is one of those riffs that was tailor-made for the era of AM radio. It grabs your attention. How did you record that?
Tom was using his Echoplex for a delay; it was too noisy so we had him record without it. Ted and I told him we could add it in the mix. He said, "Are you sure?" But when we mixed it, we forgot to add that effect!
That sounds like it was a significant problem. How did you get the echo back into the mix?
At that time, we mixed everything simultaneously in stereo and quadraphonic. I made a new stereo mix by combining the quad mix to stereo and adding the effect in the intro and breakdown. We did this after the album was mixed. I don't remember if we ever did anything about the quad mix not having the effect.
In 2020, Rhino re-released the quad mixes of the early Doobie records, and audiophiles rave about those reissues. But I remember Ted telling me that he thought that recording and mixing with quad in mind was not enjoyable at all.
Working with quadraphonic ended up being a waste of time. The Amigo Studio A control room was built for quad, and we made quad mixes for every new project. At first, it wasn't so bad; we made some quad mixes and they sounded pretty good. But they were to be released on vinyl. When JVC brought in a quad system and played back quad disks in Studio A, they sounded horrible. Still, I think if you played the original quad master tapes today, they'd sound pretty good.
The next Doobie Brothers album, What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits, features the number one hit that came out of nowhere, "Black Water." What are your memories of that song?
A lot of work went into it. It took quite a long time, but when it was finished we loved it. We didn't think it was a single record. Ted put it on the B-side of the single, "Another Park, Another Sunday" but radio stations started playing "Black Water." It was four minutes and seventeen seconds, too long for a single, but we rushed it out as a new A-side anyway.
Arlo Guthrie played on "Black Water." How did that come about?
Pat wanted an autoharp on the beginning of the song, but he had trouble getting it in tune. I had recorded Arlo Guthrie playing autoharp, and he was working with Lenny in Studio B. So, we got him to come in and play. He tuned it up in minutes, and he played his parts over the beginning of "Black Water."
You and Ted worked with Captain Beefheart on Clear Spot. Ted always says that Beefheart was a genius, but working with him in the studio was very difficult, especially on the day when Beefheart lost his temper and charged into the control room!
I don't remember that incident quite the same way Ted recalls it. Ted remembers Beefheart threatening me. I just remember Ted saying to me, "We've got to get out of here!" [laughs] We ran into Studio B, which fortunately wasn't being used at the time, and locked the door! Ted called the Amigo office and said, "Tell him we left!" Beefheart [Don Van Vliet] could get out of hand.
One thing that I love about Clear Spot is how much percussion you and Ted layered on it, all played by the great Milt Holland.
Ted was great with percussion, whether it was congas, tabla, timbales, tambourines, shakers, gourds, or whatever. And Milt Holland was Ted's go-to guy. He'd bring every conceivable percussion instrument with him to the studio, and before he left he'd play most of them.
On the album cover, you, Ted, Beefheart, and Warner Bros. executive Carl Scott are pictured around a console that was inside Griffith Observatory. What's the story there?
Beefheart said to Ted and me, "We've got to get a picture of us in a recording studio, but one that doesn't look like any other studio!" I suggested the Zeiss planetarium controls at the Griffith Observatory, with us all dressed in lab coats. He said, "Does it have a weird-looking console?" I assured him it was unique. A few days later we all got in a limo and rode up to Griffith Park. We were met at the steps of the building by the director of the observatory. Beefheart immediately said to the director, "We have something in common. My publishing company is called God's Golfball Productions!" That's the last I heard of their conversation. [laughs] We went in, sat down at the machine, and pretended to be making a record.
Speaking of Amigo Studios, Lenny, Ted, Russ Titelman, and the rest of the staff producers made a lot of records there in the 1970s. What were the logistics as an engineer for working out of Amigo?
When Lenny and Ted were both doing projects at Amigo, Ted and I would usually work in the afternoon and Lenny and Lee would work at night. Otherwise, we'd follow whatever schedule [Amigo manager] Joanne Miller put together.
I assume there were no lockouts at Amigo?
Not very often. Hopefully, when we were tracking, they were mixing, and vice versa, so the studio setups wouldn't have to be torn down and reestablished every day. That was welcome, because the engineers who I was on staff with at Amigo – Lee Herschberg, Ken Deane, Rudy Hill, Bobby Hata, Denny Shaw, Lloyd Clifft, Dennis Ghiatis, and Al McPherson – all worked very hard. The studio was always busy. Always.
One album that doesn't get enough attention is the second Montrose record, Paper Money.
It's a very good album. Alan Fitzgerald had replaced Bill Church on bass, but Ronnie [Montrose] and Sammy [Hagar] weren't getting along.
That's unfortunate, because there are some excellent songs on it. "I've Got the Fire" is incredibly powerful.
Definitely, and I still like "Connection" and "Spaceage Sacrifice." They shot a video for "I've Got the Fire" in Amigo A. At one point during the shoot, Ronnie said to Sammy, "I'm sorry, was I standing between you and the camera?" Sammy replied, "You'll never stand in front of me!"
Let's jump ahead to 1977. Van Halen is a landmark debut album. It's well known how fast it was recorded, but what was the mixing process like?
Ted and I mixed the album in [Sunset Sound] Studio 2 beginning with "You Really Got Me," the first single. After listening, I wanted to remix some of them, and Ted said, "Go for it."
What do you remember about those Sunset remixes?
Over a weekend in October 1977, Peggy McCreary assisted me in remixing some of Van Halen in Studio 1, with the Dodgers-Yankees World Series on TV. We did "Runnin' with the Devil," "Jamie's Cryin'," as well as a few others.
The following summer, when you were recording the Nicolette Larson debut [Nicolette] at Sunset, Ed [Van Halen] came in and performed a guest solo on "Can't Get Away From You." How did that come about?
Ted wanted Ed to play on that song. Ed was eager to play on it, but he didn't want credit. Initially, and I don't know if the liner notes were ever changed, but the credits said, "Lead Guitar: ?" Ed played his lead in Sunset Studio 3.
From what I understand, the Van Halen guys all had an agreement not to guest on other albums, hence the lack of credit, but his tone and playing are always unmistakable.
That's true, it still sounded like Ed.
In December 1978, you and Ted tracked Van Halen II at Sunset in Studio 2. I know it was done in a rush.
Yes, so much so that we didn't have time booked for mixing at Sunset or Amigo, and we had to go to Westlake Audio.
Okay, we will come back to that. What do you remember about recording the album?
I remember recording "Spanish Fly" in Studio 3. We had to rent Ed an acoustic guitar because he didn't own one.
The mix and production on "Somebody Get Me a Doctor" is so powerful. It sounds like Ed is playing through about a dozen Marshall stacks.
He always used just his one main Marshall amp in the studio. There was seldom anything more than that.
And just one cabinet?
Yeah, always.
You recorded Ed with Shure mics?
If the mic was right on the speaker, it was likely an SM56 or 57.
You can really hear the room on that track. It also has that trademark Van Halen party vibe.
I don't think there's much room sound on "Doctor." It's probably delays, along with Westlake's EMT [140 plate reverb].
What was it like to mix at Westlake Audio? Had you worked there before?
That was the only time I worked at Westlake Audio on Wilshire Boulevard. It was actually their sales office. Tom Hidley, who I had worked for at T.T.G., owned Westlake Audio and they built recording studios. This Westlake office had a fully functional control room. It was used for mixing and demonstration.
I imagine that was less than ideal?
It was a very good room that was a long drive from home. Ted has talked about how small the 5150 control room was; this one was even smaller. On the other hand, I had heard that the first Boston album [Boston] was mixed there, so I knew it could be done.
I've seen a few Van Halen acetates, often with different sequences. I know Ted always valued your input. Did you express your opinions on sequences?
I did, but Ted had to sort through it himself. We'd want to give potential singles a chance of being heard, and, at the same time, each transition should feel comfortable and maybe tell a story. It could be complicated, but Ted was good at it.
The Doobie Brothers' Minute by Minute was completed a bit before Van Halen II. Minute by Minute, in contrast to the early Van Halen albums, took a long time to record.
It did take a while. We started recording at Amigo and had most of the tracks, including three versions of "What a Fool Believes," when we relocated to Sunset Sound Studio 2.
One of the little things that Ted put on my radar about "What a Fool Believes" is the subtle fills that Pat Simmons did during the pre-chorus. Ted's point was that, in terms of the music, and so much more, Pat was the unsung hero of The Doobies.
Pat played great countermelodies in the verses too. He provided the glue that held The Doobies together.
My impression is that the runaway chart success that The Doobies experienced in 1979 came as something of a surprise to everyone around the band. Is that the way you remember it?
It wasn't a surprise to me, particularly with "What a Fool Believes" and "Minute by Minute." Ted has told me that he didn't know what he had on his hands when it was done. I was more confident.
Watching the Grammy Awards footage, you can see how elated Ted, Mike, Pat, and all the guys were when they won Record of the Year for "What a Fool Believes."
They looked very happy! When the Grammy Awards show was happening live on February 27, 1980, I didn't know what had happened until Ted called me from his car right afterwards screaming, "We won! We won!" It was a great moment for everyone involved with The Doobie Brothers.
On the next Van Halen album, Women and Children First, Ed played a Wurlitzer on "And the Cradle Will Rock…" What did you think when you first heard that?
"That's a Wurlitzer?!?" [laughs] My next thought was, "How's he doing that?" I went out into Sunset Studio 1 and watched. When he played with his effects through his Marshall amp, it sounded like a new kind of instrument. I loved it.
On "Everybody Wants Some," once again it sounds like Ed was playing at an ear-bleeding volume. How loud did he play in the studio?
Not loud at all. Ed's was the quietest Marshall I'd ever heard. What Ed wasn't telling everybody was that he was using the Variac [variable transformer] to run his Marshall at 85 volts instead of 120. That was one of the key reasons he got that sound.
Did Ed typically adjust the voltage on the Variac in the studio?
No. He'd have it set to between 80 and 85 volts and he would rarely change it. When he'd find something that worked, that was it. There are other musicians that would fiddle around with settings all through the sessions. Not Ed. He would get what he wanted; and when he liked it, it was locked in and he wouldn't touch it.
That reminds me of the Michael McDonald anecdote about how you'd beg him not to turn knobs on his synth after you'd found the right sound.
Yeah. That's true. [laughs] Mike loved adjusting the synthesizer. He'd have a good sound, and we'd say, "Stop right there, that sounds great!" and then he'd change it. Ted would say he couldn't stand it and go into the lounge.
I was surprised to learn that Women and Children First was recorded in all three studios at Sunset Sound.
We would work wherever there was room. Most of the tracks were recorded in Studio 1, many overdubs were in Studios 2 and 3, and all of the mixes were done in Studio 2.
You recorded the sound of a gentle rainstorm on that one. How did that come about?
"Could This Be Magic?" was the only track we ever did in Studio 3. It was raining, an unusual event that year in L.A. Engineer Gene Meros put mics out and we recorded the rain for the song.
On that one, Dave played an open-tuning acoustic and Ed played slide guitar. He never played slide guitar before, but Ted encouraged him to do so. Do you remember this?
Yes, I think that was the first time Ed played slide guitar. Ed and Dave played that together, side by side.
Were the vocals live?
We started running down the song with vocals, but then we decided to get the guitars first then add the vocals. We did the vocals that same day.
There's always chatter that Ed, rather than bassist Michael Anthony, played bass on a bunch of Van Halen songs. Can you set the record straight?
It was almost always Michael Anthony! I can't even name one song where I know that Ed played bass. I know it happened, but it was rare. Up until "I'll Wait," I think all Van Halen songs were recorded with the entire band playing together.
Fair Warning was the next Van Halen album. That one took longer to record.
It did take a long time. It was my first time back at work since my house was flooded the previous year. Ed and Al [Alex Van Halen] were after something more intense.
