Growing up on the West Coast, I always thought rock 'n' roll and soul music were from different places, and different times. Then I came to Memphis...
That's exactly right. A lot of the music you hear is influenced by R&B. The motivation for me was always, "How good is the material?" I was always trying to find out what "good" meant. When I was a young kid, I loved, "I'm so young and you're so old/This, my darling, I've been told" – "Diana" by Paul Anka. If it was good, it was good. I didn't care. I was passionate about learning all of it, but I also found a lot of inspiration. Having met Elvis and finding out his biggest inspiration was a guy named Roy Hamilton? It just amazes me.
And Arthur Alexander.
Yeah, exactly.
Do you still sometimes feel like the kid that worked at the grocery store across the street from Stax?
I've had a chance to have a little bit of experience. After 75 years, I vividly remember being the young kid at the grocery store across the street and coming over to that building. A country-western label had just moved in right across the street, and that was the beginning.
They had the record store in the front?
They had a record store in the front that was an old movie theater. The Capitol Theater. The neighborhood was changing over. Whites were moving out and blacks were moving in. It wasn't all the way at that point, but the transition was going on. Jim Stewart and Estelle [Axton] got this building. I knew they were making music over there, but I didn't know what kind or anything like that. I was working at the grocery store across the street, so I just went across [and introduced myself]. I said, "I like to do music. Would you be, uh, could I…" Estelle said, "No, we do country." I said, "Well, will you listen to some of my music?" She said again, "No. We do country." That was my introduction. Because there was a record store in front of the building, and Estelle Axton was such a beautiful, spirited lady, I was able to start conversations with her and that ran into getting inside.
Did you ask them about buying soul records that you wanted to hear at the record store? Did you get to listen to things that were currently out at that point?
No, I can't take claim to being that smart. With that record store being what it was, they were putting hit records in the store. WDIA [radio] had just launched, in a powerful way. Those records had an appeal to the community that was making that transition. Estelle was buying what was working on radio; I was just a kid coming over and listening to what they were playing inside the store to sell. She just saw my interest and excitement for music and befriended me. I befriended her as well.
You'd been playing music before, as well as in school?
Yes, I had been. As a matter of fact, I had a record out right after my senior year in high school called "Farewell". This was before I got into Stax. I did terrible with the record but, needless to say, I was already making music. I was singing around clubs. I thought that I wanted to be a recording star. I was not thinking in terms of [being] a songwriter.
Did Stax finally relent? Or did someone say, "Let's do something with you"?
What happened was I was given permission to come inside. I was going into the record store, and Estelle actually got comfortable with me. I finally was able to ease my way into the recording studio. In the building at the time was a fellow by the name of Chips Moman. They didn't call it A&R at that time, but he was the guy who worked for the label. They had two artists: Nick Charles and Charles Heinz. I heard them do the country music, and I just started pestering. "Jim, would you give me a chance to record?" I was pushing him to give me a chance. That was actually the opening of an opportunity there. On the demo session I was doing, I brought in Booker T. Jones, who played baritone horn, Andrew Love, who played tenor sax, and William Bell, who sang background. I changed the words to a song called "The Old Gray Mare," and that was what was recorded. That was the entree to getting into it. Then, right after that, Stax was working with Carla and Rufus [Thomas].
Wasn't Rufus doing radio?
He was a disc jockey on WDIA; a signature voice of WDIA. DJ Nat D. Williams was a history teacher at Booker T. Washington High School, a high school that Maurice White, William Bell, [drummer] Al Jackson Jr., and I went to. All the radio personnel had signature voices. Rufus was a noted and respected disc jockey because of that.
I assume that connection between what was on the radio, what people were wanting to hear, and what was going to be recorded was kind of the catalyst for you.
Exactly. It was. Rufus had that straightforwardness. He was not apprehensive at all about seeking out an opportunity. I wasn't privy to any of the conversation that facilitated it being recorded, but I can only imagine, knowing Rufus. He was like, "You've got to hear me. You've got to hear my daughter." I think Carla Thomas was the voice that probably had a greater appeal to Jim, at that time. So they recorded "Cause I Love You" as a duo, and the rest became history.
Did you start to realize that you could be more of a facilitator and writer?
My ultimate end [goal] was to get in, but I froze during the session. I was singing flat. I had Booker T. Jones, Andrew Love, and William Bell. I thought I had enough ammunition to cover for me, but it wasn't enough. I didn't feel like that would get me in. I started asking for other opportunities to write songs. "I can write." It was not an anxiousness to get an opportunity to write, but I kept pestering for that position. Ultimately Estelle, once again, convinced Jim to give me a chance. I got other people to audition for them to take a listen to as well because I was trying to protect myself, as far as my position there, and I wanted to prove that I had value. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was doing A&R work.
Right. So you were bringing in other artists and saying, "I'll write or co-write," or whatever?
I was given the opportunity of a trial period. They didn't have very much money, but they said they were going to give me a trial period, and I had six months to write them some hits. In those six months I was introducing them to some other talents. I brought Homer Banks there, a classmate of mine from high school. Also Maurice White, who founded Earth, Wind & Fire, but Maurice left and went to Chicago. I started bringing other people and saying, "These people are good." I was writing at the same time. Chips Moman left, Steve Cropper came in. The first person that I officially wrote with was Marvell Thomas. We did a record with Barbara Stephens called "The Life I Live." That's one of the very first records released on Stax [previously Satellite Records]. I knew that writing was my path, so I started working hard to develop that.
It's interesting that it does become a bit of A&R, because you're thinking about who would be good to work with or write for.
It wasn't a big artist roster, at that time. They were considering acts to sign, and I was trying to write good songs, because I was it as far as writing staff was concerned. I was trying to help bring other energy inside the space. It ended up being of value, in that respect. I would think in terms of, "Okay, this person can do this song," or, "This person can do that song," for the few artists that we did have. But I was also looking for other people who could contribute in a creative way. Marvell lasted a short period with me. I ended up writing some initial material with Steve Cropper. I was still looking for a partnership that could ultimately have me competitive to the Holland–Dozier–Holland level. I had high ambitions, right?
There were great songwriting teams back then.
Burt Bacharach and Hal David as well as Holland–Dozier–Holland were the two that I had ambitions to emulate. There was such beauty out of the Bacharach and David writing and composition, and there was such energy out of the Holland–Dozier–Holland team. I was trying to find a way to find a niche for myself. So I was looking for the right partnership.
