What made you feel Huey Lewis and the News had the potential to make you want to roll the dice on them?
Huey and I were friends. We enjoyed each other, and most of that band is from Marin County, so we would all hang out together and have a good time. Huey Lewis' manager, Bob Brown, managed the group Pablo Cruise, and they used to open up for us when I was working with Steve Miller. At first Huey had this band called "Huey Lewis and the American Express" and they changed their name to "the News" because they thought they'd get sued by the credit card company. They played a lot at George's Club in Marin County, where I lived, and one night I was invited down to see them. That night his manager asked me, "Would you be interested in cutting some demos with them?" We cut some demos at The Automatt [in San Francisco]. Chrysalis Records came in, the A&R guy sat right beside me in the control room, and he said, "I want to do this band, with Jim Gaines, at this studio. It's a done deal." A month later they were in Los Angeles working with Bill Schnee on what became their first studio LP; the self-titled Huey Lewis and the News. So I said, "I'm done. If the record companies have gone so political that they're not going to give me a chance, I'm not staying in the business." I packed up my family, moved to Oregon, bought two businesses, and I couldn't have cared less. There really wasn't a Huey Lewis and the News record before [the second album,] Picture This. Nobody ever knew about it, because the label had taken them down to L.A. and turned the band into this slick L.A. sound. Huey had initially wanted me for my R&B and rock background, and that's what the band really was. I'd started my new life up in Oregon; meanwhile they released the album, and it didn't do anything. I get this call from Huey and he says, "Jim, they've given us five guys to check out for producers on the next record. We want to produce it ourselves, but you have to come back out here and engineer it. You're the only guy who understands this band and what the hell we're trying to do here." And my initial reply was, "I could care less. I got screwed over and I ain't coming back." He said, "Please, please? I promise you, we'll work together on this thing." I said, "Okay." I decided to stay living in Grants Pass, Oregon, but to fly back out there to do the Picture This album. At that point in time, Huey and I were in the same boat. He had a one-truck, failing yogurt business and I was in the windshield repair business, plus I had a diet center. I was fixing Mercedes' windshield cracks, and we were on the phone laughing the whole thing off about our shared predicament. So I decided to take a chance and give this thing one more shot. I moved into a hotel in San Francisco, and we cut the album at two different studios. The way I saw Huey Lewis and the News — when I'd seen them live and I knew I was going to be recording them in the studio — the whole idea was to capture their essence as a live, good-time band. When you see them, they have a lot of fun, with big smiling faces, and Huey's out there working the crowd and playing great harmonica. I was trying to capture what I saw in the band. As a producer, I'm a raw energy guy; groove and raw energy are the first two things I'm looking for. I'm not looking for everything to be picture perfect, pardon the pun.
You worked with Huey Lewis as a co- producer for the better part of a decade, which resulted in thirteen Top 40 hits. What about you as a producer made Huey feel you would be the right collaborator when you two were first starting out together in the studio?
All I can say is this: when we did those first records, especially the first two [Picture This, Sports], we were creating a new sound. I didn't go with it in the front of my mind saying, "I'm going to this session to create a sound," but once I'd get into the session, and I'd hear those songs coming up, then I'd start to say, "We need to do this to make that work." Like I said, the band had gone and done their first record with Bill Schnee in L.A., and Bill is great at engineering, but I have a different concept and approach to engineering than he does. I'm a little more loosey-goosey; it's gotta-make- my-ass-wiggle thing, and I'm not as much into the technical side. The first thing I wanna ask is, "Can I get it from the amp?," if it's a guitar thing. Or if it's an organ, "Can you change a few of those drawbar settings?" Then we let the mics do the work. We get to the console, and we can do EQs and whatever we want there. But my approach when we were doing those records was I wanted to create some fun, good-time songs. All of us did. That's the way the band was, and we were all in sync at that point in time. We were all on the same page. That's why they brought me out of retirement; because they felt like I understood what they were trying to go for.
"Do You Believe in Love" was the band's first Top 10 hit, and is still in regular radio rotation 30 years later. Was that song an example to you as a producer of one that was an obvious hit, even while you were still in the studio recording it?
It was one of the last songs that came in. It came from Mutt Lange [he wrote it], and bam! We had a Top 20 single. That is a very catchy song. It came to us at the end of the session when we were wrapping up, but were still looking for another song. The way Johnny Colla and the boys set up those harmonies, that melody really stuck out at me. All those guys in that band sang, and they sang great harmonies — especially when we put Chris [Hayes], Bill [Gibson], Johnny, and Sean [Hopper] together. Johnny Colla did a lot of specifying of what he wanted on this song. There are certain things about a single. You've got to remember that a single is played on the radio, and there are certain things about radio that you have to be a little careful of: You don't want the solos too long. You don't want it too congested [mix and arrangement-wise] so that the clarity is not there. I'm talking about what I know about singles. The melody has got to be very dominant. The hook line needs to be repeated; not over-excessive, but quite a few times. Is the hook line catchy? Here's one of the main things: Can you sing along with it? That song sounded very young, and very summertime sounding, and that's what made that song work.
Sports is still considered one of the most iconic albums of the '80s, and it launched the band into international stardom. As its sonic architect, what were your ambitions heading into pre-production for your second record with them?
I had a blueprint in my head for those records, as far as the sound goes, because I'm one of those old-school guys. I'm making the mix right there as I'm cutting; I'm cutting to a mix. That's how I work, even today. I'm starting the song knowing what the mix is going to sound like in the end. I know that sounds weird, but I think any engineer will tell you that. When you're starting a song you know where you're trying to go and you're cutting to the level, the sound, and the dimension of the song. Where you want it to be. I'm cutting to that level at all times.
What's the story behind the recording of the famous heartbeat intro at the top of "The Heart of Rock & Roll"? I understand it was a bit challenging, given this was 1982.
We spent a minute on that heartbeat intro. We were working at Fantasy Studios, and I remember we were all sitting there trying to figure out, "What the hell does a heartbeat sound like?" So we tried a kick drum, and that was not going to work. Sean [Hopper] and I were dicking around with some sounds, and we took a synth sound from this [Roland] Jupiter-8 he had. We spent about four or five hours working on that sound, because we thought that there was a lot of low-end associated with a heartbeat, and we knew we had to get the right low-end. Again, that kick drum wouldn't give it to us. It was too straight. I think a heartbeat almost has a little delay to it, so I ran the sample through a little bit of delay. It had a little bit of slap to it like you hear on the single. So Sean Hopper, the keyboard player, and I came up with that sound out of a synth sample, with some tricks on it.
"I Want a New Drug" is a classic radio and video staple of the '80s, as well as a great example of the fusion of new wave and rock elements that you and Huey blended so well. Were there any cutting-edge synthesizers or other gear at play in the production of that hit?
Sean Hopper came up with that great synth riff that sounds like horns. The synthesizer sound throughout the Sports album was a Jupiter-8, but we did have some [Yamaha] DX7 going on too. This is when the MIDI world was starting to kick in, so we hooked up a couple of things: a [Roland MKS-80] Super Jupiter, which was this extra module you could get, and an organ. Sean is a great organ player, and we would go direct with his sound. When we did that song, the record company had this whole big thing about, "No drug lyrics on the radio." We were thinking, "They might not even want to release this thing," because of all this anti-drug stuff that was going on. Nancy Reagan had the "Just say no" deal and all of that, even though Huey was talking about love. So when we were cutting it, we wanted to make it fun and up, with these cute little effects on it, but we didn't know what was going to happen with it. The damn thing almost got pulled because everybody was so concerned radio wouldn't play it. When it became a big hit the whole thing became a snowball, because of the amount of plays it was getting, and then the video became successful. MTV helped a lot with that one.
The drum sound you got with that band is one of the finest I've ever heard. A good example is "Stuck With You." What was the secret behind that sound?
irst off, "Stuck With You" was an interesting song because we were in-between [the albums] Sports and Fore! and we got a call from the record label saying, "We need a single to tide us over until the next record comes out." We went in the studio and cut that one song so they could have something for radio to prepare for the next album. When it became a hit, it was like, "Holy mackerel, the damn thing is on the air!" The drums were done in the B Room at The Record Plant [Sausalito, CA], which was my favorite tracking room back then. It was live enough for me. I had a drum riser built, because I don't like putting drums on a flat floor any more than I have to. When you put drums on a really hard-surfaced floor, the toms and kick drum don't have that after-ring. It dissipates. So if I put Bill Gibson, Huey's drummer, on a riser and raise it up 6 or 8 inches on something that's not solid, I'd get a whole different drum sound. It was amazing — we heard the bottom-end come up drastically. I had a special riser that was built out of 2 x 6 boards; it was heavy and open. When I wasn't using it, it laid up against the wall. But when I put it down on the floor and had a rug on it, that's how I created a lot of the drum sounds in that room. I remember when Rod Stewart's road guy come in there, and he said, "That will never work." Then, when he listened after we'd set it up and tracked, he said, "Wow," because the toms took on a different atmosphere. They had more of a sonic low-end boom that rose above. Plus, the kick drum was not as dead, and the snare had an extra low mid tone. It's a simple little trick, but it was part of my sound back then. We had an AMS [RMX16], which was the gated reverb sound that Bob Clearmountain [Tape Op #84] made famous. I bought one, and one day these people at Guitar Center called me and said, "We've got this reverb unit we'd love for you to try out. Just tell us what you think." It was the Yamaha SPX90. I got this gated reverb sound out of it and it only cost $350. I'm thinking, "Well, this is stupid. I paid $10,000 for the AMS." So I ordered three of the Yamahas, sold my AMS, and I used the Yamahas a lot for my drum sound. At that point in time I used [Neumann U]87s for overheads. Sometimes — depending on what mics I had — I used [Sennheiser] 421s for toms, because I liked the attack and the way it projects the midrange. or the kick drum, in those days they didn't have an [AKG] D112, so we used [Electro-Voice] RE20s. I might have used two mics, an RE20 and something a little more bottom-oriented. I liked the RE20 because it could take the impact and give you the attack. There are times I like to use an [AKG] C414 on the toms if I can get by with it; it depends on how close that ride cymbal is to it. Especially the floor tom, because it makes the floor tom whip and the 414 has got a great, smooth bottom-end. The other big thing is having a live room you can work with. I kind of ran the Record Plant for a while; I was their number one client and it was my room. When I didn't want it they could book it, but back in those days they'd always have to clear it with me because I was doing so much in there. Bill's one of those drummers who comes from a rock background, but the Huey material had a lot of R&B feel to it. All the guys in that band — Johnny Colla played with Sly Stone for a while — came from an R&B/rock hybrid background. Bill's one of those guys who lays the groove down on that backside. If you're an R&B guy, that's where you want it. He plays to the song. That's what I like about him; he's not trying to play a drum part, he's playing to the song. A lot of drummers don't get that, but he did.
"Jacob's Ladder," the first single off of Fore!, was sonically like nothing I'd ever heard before it hit the radio in 1986. Does anything stand out about its recording?
That actually came from Bruce Hornsby. I don't honestly remember what the original demo sounded like, but I know it was one of those songs that could be set up a little differently, because it's a unique song. The arrangement we all came up with was like, "Wow, it works for this song," because it was such a different style from everything else they were doing. I didn't look at that song at the time as a radio friendly song, to be honest, like I did "Stuck with You." I try to capture a little bit of live-ness to the music, and that's the concept they wanted. I do it today with a lot of bands that work withme—Ilookatitasifyou'regoingtoseealive performance. That's the sound I want to hear, except with us in control. If I hear that music, I want to see a live performance going on, and I approach my engineering like that. As a producer I try to get the engineers working for me to get that same concept. It has nothing to do with a bunch of room mics — in fact I don't remember having room mics for that band. It's the way I mic'd Bill Gibson's drum set, and the way we approached the guitar sounds. We didn't have a lot of big, giant amps; we had a nice little room for them. They're not the kind of band where you drag out the big stack of Marshall amps and kick their ass on power sounds. Most of the sounds were self-contained rhythmic sounds, with little solos. Chris Hayes is a great guitar player. He's not like a heavy-duty rocker; he's more like a jazz rock player, in a lot of ways. One of my tricks is I double mic an amp. No matter how many speakers it has, I use two mics and it gives me a lot of lower mid-sound; but it also gives me a different presence than you can get with one mic. You've gotta work with the tones on the amp, and we had a great little room at the Record Plant that had a slate floor. It was weird, because it had actually been set up to be an iso booth or a live echo chamber. It was roughly 12 x 14 feet and it was a pie shape, but not real pie shape. I would set the amps up in that room. On Chris's guitar sound on Fore! I would use a [Shure SM]57, of course, which you can't go wrong with. But if I was looking for coloration, I would pick a condenser mic, and I might use a [Neumann] U87, or even a ribbon mic like a [RCA] 77-DX. If I was looking for a brighter sound, I might have put a 414 on his amp; it really depended on the character. I always had a 57 on him, but that second mic was just another coloration.
